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russian guitar tubeamp
per ( )
Mon Nov 8 15:20:23 2004
Hi there need a little tech help. Got this russian tubehead called "heavy duty" it has 4 6nc3`s and a 6h2n and 2 ecc85`s. I think the 6n3c can be replaced with 6l6`s and the 6h2n with ecc83, but what about the ecc 85`s? any replacements or are  there a way to find out if they are the right tubes, and not put in it by mistake by somebody? after all I know about guitaramps, this is an very odd tube to put in it, or am I mistaken? The amp "cranks" at very low settings, so something must be wrong.  
Hope somebody can help.  
Thanks in advance:  
Per  
Denmark
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per ( )
Mon Nov 8 16:31:35 2004
sorry wrong e-mail...  
the right one is: dont-stop@dk
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Le Basseur
Mon Nov 8 16:40:11 2004
Hi Per,  
1.The main problem with your amp seems to be the insertion of those two ECC85 tubes.Obviously,in an all-Russian tube amp,the 85's have no place.  
I don't know the amp's schematic therefore I can only guess about the configuration,but most probable issue is that in the place of the two 85's originally were 6N1P's (note that I write with Latin letters,not Cyrillic).  
The 6N1P,6N2P and ECC85 share the same pinout and al three have a 6,3V heater and pin 9 connected to an internal shield between the two triodes so I assume that for this reason someone replaced the original (Russian) tubes with the 85's,not taking into account the electrical differences.  
Partially you're right,the ECC85 is a rather rare tube in guitar amplifiers,but this doesn't mean it cannot be used (of course,after a proper tweaking:))  
Try to identify what's the circuit(s) of those two ECC85/? tubes.Are they in the reverb chain,phase splitter,gain stage?After identification it shall be much easier to indicate the right (Russian) tube to use in that place(s).  
2.The 6N2P's are indeed the (early) Russian versions of the ECC83/12AX7 tube BUT with a heater voltage of 6,3V between the pins 4 and 5.An average 6N2P (grey anodes) is a little too noisy-hissy for use in early stages and,if you don't know how to modify the heaters on the socket,I advice you to get some 6N2P-E or 6N2P-EV (shiny anodes).These are the military versions and they're much quieter and non-microphonic.  
2.The output tubes are 6Pi3S ?(again,note the Latin letters)  
If yes,they're a real pain in the butt and yes,they need to be replaced with Russian military 6Pi3S-E (wafer base,somewhat equivalent to 5881's but much more tougher).Or,if you can afford and you care about logo's,get some 6L6's of current production.6L6 made by JJ Tesla is a serious candidate and the prices are friendly enough.  
HTH,  
Le Basseur
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per ( )
Tue Nov 9 09:04:23 2004
Thanks for the answers,its very helpful. I`m going to find out which circuit they are placed in, and then I`ll be back.  
regards  
Per
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per ( )
Tue Nov 9 11:48:13 2004
Hi again.  
The ecc85`s seems to be in the preampsection, both are connected to "jack in holes" and volumebutton, I hope this is information enough?  
Thanks in advance:  
Per.
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Le Basseur
Tue Nov 9 12:15:55 2004
Switch the 6N2P's with the 85's and see what you get.The ECC85's-alike-ECC81 are not very suitable (as a general way of speaking) for input stages but rather for phase inverter.You might let only one 85 in the PI and put in any other socket 6N2P's (again,I insist for the 6N2P-EV version in the early stage).  
HTH,  
Le Basseur
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per ( )
Tue Nov 9 16:00:54 2004
Hmm a little confused..you mean put in one of the ecc85 where the 6n2p is located? but what about the empty socket from which I took the ecc85 ?left empty or?  
regards  
per
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per ( )
Wed Nov 10 08:14:52 2004
Hi again.  
Guess I`ve got your point, at last. Took a lttle time caurse my english may be a bit rusty. One more question, When looking at the sockets for the ecc85 and 6n2p, there is nothing connected to pin 9, how comes? doesn`t shield means connection to ground? sorry if this is a dumb question...  
Thanks for your help so far.  
Per.
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related topic, question for Le Basseur?
Greg Simon
Wed Nov 10 13:09:44 2004
Since you seem to know a bit about Russian tubes, do you have any idea where I might be able to find this one Le Basseur? The tube in question is a 6C315-P and comes in the Oktava MKL 2500 Vacuum tube microphone. I would like to get an extra but have never been able to find any reference anywhere to it.  
Thank you for any help you can provide!  
Greg
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Le Basseur ( )
Wed Nov 10 15:57:28 2004
Hi Greg,  
Please give me a couple days because I have to see who is selling what nowadays.Personally,I don't have this specific triode (looks like it's a tube of a newer generation,like 6C45C) but I'm sure we'll find one for you:).  
Regards,  
Le Basseur
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Le Basseur ( )
Wed Nov 10 22:06:08 2004
Typo or not,but the correct name of the Oktava tube is 6C31A-P.  
As I said,I don't know this tube and it doesn't either appear in my Russian tubes-related documentation and catalogs (my coverage is only up to 1978).  
Greg,do you mind if I ask you to make a photo or two of this tube and send them to me by mail?  
Cheers,
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Greg Simon
Thu Nov 11 01:39:00 2004
Le Basseur, I don't have the mic apart, so a photo isn't easy to do. I was just going off the info I got from the Oktava page. I emailled them a year ago or so when I got the mic and they weren't very helpful either. The info below is what they say about it.  
Greg  
 
 The Oktava MKL2500 Tube Microphone  
 
The Oktava MKL2500 Tube microphone is the product of collaborative design between east and west, using the technical expertise of the oktava engineers and the knowledge of experienced British designers to produce a remarkable microphone. The MKL2500 has been some time in the making and the work that has been put into it is immediately apparent on first listening. The warmth and clarity associated with the classic tone of Oktavas famous capsule designs lends this microphone a unique yet subtle character.  
 
The 6C315-P tube inside the mic teamed with a specially designed power block gives enough third harmonic distortion to brighten and add warmth to almost any sound source, and the gold sputtered 33mm cardioid capsule adds that extra presence so enamoured of vocalists  
 
Oktava microphones are well known for their groundbreaking prices, and the MKL2500 is no exception. Consumers of all levels can now benefit from the tube sound without paying the price.  
 
The MKL2500 is for those that need one all round, multi purpose microphone, and suits digital recording perfectly by adding the character that can often be missing in digital recordings , while maintaining a very low noise floor. It is a very valuable addition to the microphone cupboards of larger studios having its own unique character which could be that elusive something extra during recording.  
     
Technical Specifications    
Polar Pattern Cardioid  
Frequency response 20hz to 20kHz    
Sensitivity 13mV/Pa  
Power Power block supplied  
Output Impedance 200 Ohm nominal  
Minimum load impedance 1 k Ohm  
Max SPL @ 1kHz > 135dB  
Max output voltage 1.2V  
Curent Consumption 8mA  
Temp. Range -35degrees C to +45 degrees C  
Relative Humidity 85% (+25 degrees C)
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Greg,you got me on that!
Le Basseur ( )
Thu Nov 11 10:30:57 2004
Hi Greg,  
I looked extensively for that tube and it seems no one has it on sale and,even worse,I cannot find any data!  
My request for pictures is motivated by the obvious scarcity of that tube (again,6C31A-P,not 6C315-A as stated on Oktava page).It's a really annoying situation like many others when Russian tubes are involved....why such mistery and surrounding fog?  
As I said,the Oktava tube is of a newer production because the Russians marked their tubes increasingly (for instance,6N1Pi was produced since the late 50's and 6N23Pi-very similar to a ECC88-began from early 80's).The same applies to single triodes (like 6C45S,developed for military during mid'80's).  
I was shortly tempted to believe that the 6C31A-P might be a nuvistor (and I didn't completely discarded this option) but the Russians marked their nuvistors in another way.Though,who knows?I couldn't say more 'till I see a photo of this tube.  
The other benefit of a photo is that I could identify it more easily by internal structure and eventually I could find a Western substitute.Please don't forget that in most cases the Russians stealed a Western design and copied it or even improved.  
What a bitter taste...:o ...I just hate being so helpless!  
Regards,
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Greg Simon
Thu Nov 11 12:51:46 2004
Le Basseur, thank you very much for looking anyway. I ran into the same problem when I asked the Oktava distributers in an email about how to get the tube or who makes it. I'm sure since its in a mic, it will last a long ime, but I'd like to have a replacement for when it does go bad. I'll see if I can get the tube out of the mic without too much trouble and take a pic.  
Greg
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Re: russian guitar tubeamp
MatthiasM ( )
Mon Nov 8 16:42:02 2004
Hi Per,  
 
the ECC85 is pretty much a ECC81/12AT7 with different heater wiring and a shield between the triode sections, so if you can rewire the socket it would make replacement way easier.  
 
;Matthias
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per ( )
Tue Nov 9 09:06:00 2004
Thanks, I`ll consider your advice..  
regards  
Per

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