ampage > Music Electronics > Guitar Tech > Pickups : 1 : PAF style paper tape

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PAF style paper tape
anonymous		Tue May 10 06:59:51 2005
3M Flatback electrical tape #4 was discontinued several years ago. It's the tape that was used on old PAFs and other various pickups untill it's discontinuation. Seymour's the only person who has anything close. I've been in recent discussions lately with 3M about bringing back this tape, even if only in limited quantities. All of the larger pickups makers I know want this tape to come back. Lindy and I talk about it frequently, as well as Tom Holmes, Jim Rolph, and others. How much interest from the people here would there be? I know from personal experience that people tend to hate the 3M #11 cloth tape. Other black paper tapes use a carbon-black colour that causes the tape to be conductive - this is bad. With enough interest, 3M just might bring this tape back. If you're interested, let them know. They have been directed to this forum and may be visiting very soon.

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Dave Stephens		Tue May 10 08:21:49 2005
I would certainly buy a bunch of rolls of this stuff if it came back, 1/4 inch and the full wrap size to go around the two coils. I am certain that higher pickup producers like Lollar, Fralin, Seymour Duncan, and who knows, maybe even Gibson would jump on board quickly to bring this back. That would provide ample customer base to restart an old product. I also wonder if this was ever used in transformer uses or other uses we are not aware of that also might provide more customer base for 3M? Dave

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How dissapointing
anonymous		Sat May 14 07:51:37 2005
I can't tell you how dissapointed I am in the response to this thread. It makes me wonder how many people here actually make pickups, because if there were many, you'd certainly be interested in having this stuff produced again. And if you're not now, trust me, you will be when you start selling stuff and your customers are pissed because it's not "vintage correct" or when the tape you're using now begins to eat through and corrode your coils. Can you imagine what would happen if vulcanized fibre were to dissapear tomorrow? Many people don't realise that our suppliers are discontinuing us right out of business, except for the larger companies. If we sit idle and do nothing, our supplies will vanish and we'll be left up shit creek.

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Andrew C ( )		Sat May 14 09:32:02 2005
1. Its hard to make the people rise up posting anonymously. Lesson from Spartacus. 2. The only thing wrong with fabric tape, which I use, is that it is not vintage correct? I couldn't care less. Most of us are in it for tone... 3. If you are so sure, make some yourself and start distributing it. I believe www.suprisinglyaccuratelatefiftieshumbuckertape.com is still available, but I haven't checked in the last 72 minutes. 4. Suppliers don't vanish, they discontinue lines that are unprofitable. Fortunately, the manufacture of paper tape involves only the following steps. 1. Finding paper 2. Adding adhesive 3. Rolling it 4. Slitting it to width. 5. Smirking about how easy it was You could actually make some in your basement with the help of someone who knew more than I about adhesives. Sincerely Andrew C

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Greg Simon		Sat May 14 10:47:58 2005
I know who anonymous is in this case and I know why he stays anonymous, and can't say I blame him, though I do understand your point also Andy. Maybe its time to make up some other name to use consistently besides anonymous? It doesn't have to be your real name but it would seperate you from the trolls I guess! I haven't got into winding myself yet, mostly because I'm still on an amp making/modding kick, but one day I will get into doing pickups. I probably will only care about the tone however, and not try to be vintage correct, but I can see why some people would want to be, and they should have the right parts if that is their thing and what their customers want. Greg

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Dave Stephens		Sat May 14 11:55:11 2005
Anonymous, shit yeah I want that tape. I think bottom line there are very few pickup makers here, alot of hobbyists and experimenters> I hang out her for guys like Joe Gwinn and Moocow and some up and coming pickup makers who experiment in areas that I don't. There IS a market for vintage correct and I know that you have a line to Fralin, Duncan and those guys and I think the key is getting them involved. I do think there's enough real demand to have 3M make the stuff. It would be cool if a 3M rep would enlighten us about some of their products on the forum and what it would take to have this stuff made again. I am also very disaponted by the response..... On a postive note, a year ago no one could get 3M number 11 tape in small quantities and now I am seeing some companies selling it online, but also I am seeing equally good Korean tape of the same type more easily available. If American s won't do it Asians will......

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Very well, here's a name
Spartacus		Sat May 14 22:02:56 2005
Very well, I've chosen a new name, and Spartacus I shall be. I do agree, tone is most important. However, when you restore a '50's PAF or P-90 for someone and use cloth tape, I can virtually guarantee you they'll come back you you and chew you a new asshole three ways to Sunday. I personally stopped using cloth tapes because I had horrible problems with it fraying, and because it comes unstuck during potting. I hated it. My distributor woulnd't even THINK of carrying my product untill I started using paper tape. Another distributor also demanded paper tape, before I was able to find what I'm using now. That deal was quickly abandonded. Unfortunately, the tape I currently use was recently changed as is no longer suitable.

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Re: How dissapointing
Jeff G. ( )		Sat May 14 18:36:40 2005
I'm a builder, but tapes are really low on my list of concerns. http://www.highorderpickups.com Quite honestly, and to echo Andrew's comment, I'm trying to give people good tone not specific tapes and wires. If you seriously want folks to get in on a special run or bulk purchase, I might take part if the cost is reasonable. IMO, there are far too many myths being propagated with respect to pickups and what makes the tone. From my perspective, maybe 1 out of 30 customers seems ate up over "vintage correctness." I do what I can to accomodate them and, if I can't, I recommend somebody else. To me, it's about the tone ... period. That said, I'd be willing to take part "for the good of the community" as long as the cost isn't ridiculous. V/r Jeff

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Spence ( )		Sat May 14 18:47:42 2005
Personally, I'd love to get my hands on that paper tape. My main concern after tone and quality is vintage correctness for the look as much as the supposed tonal benefits. I am looking into finding this tape even though it's out of production at 3M. There will be an alternative somewhere; some company that's making a good alternative. A roll of it came up on Ebay a little while ago which was bought by someone called Alan Dingwall for about £1.50 if I remember rightly. I wasn't around to bid on it at the end of auction and lost it. So if I find a source I'll share it with you all.

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Tape is tape?
Steve A. ( )		Sat May 14 22:41:29 2005
It seems to me that the wrong kind of tape might be difficult to remove later, like if the adhesive got gummed up inside the windings of an unpotted coil. As a hobbyist I've tried potting my pickups and shielding coils with copper foil tape. I would then wrap the bobbin with a white rayon adhesive tape. I don't know if it had anything to do with the tape, but many of my pickups would have a problem with static noises. I would think that the black paper tape would be less destructive than some of the alternatives mentioned here, so I don't think it is strictly a matter of aesthetics. Steve Ahola

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Spartacus		Sun May 15 00:56:05 2005
Rayon tape is most likely the cause of static noises. The 3M #4 was originally chosen because of it's ease of use, longevity, and it's removeability from coils without tearing the wire. A major problem you'll find with most tapes is the acidic content of the adhesive and paper. If your tape is not "electrical grade" acid-free it will lead to quick failure of the pickup. #11 is fine for that, sure, but the majority of customers don't want it. Without the paper tape I've been using up till now, I never would have gotten the $10,000 order I'm about to complete. I'd still be scraping by doing onesies and twosies.

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Joe Gwinn ( )		Wed Jun 1 01:17:56 2005
On 5/15/2005 1:46 AM, Spartacus said: A major problem you'll find with most tapes is the acidic content of the adhesive and paper. If your tape is not "electrical grade" acid-free it will lead to quick failure of the pickup. [3M tape] #11 is fine for that, sure, but the majority of customers don't want it. And the finer the wire the greater the problem. I have to wonder what transformer and solenoid and relay manufacturers use. This is a big market (unlike pickups) and so the tape manufacturers are likely to keep making tape for them. Like little audio transformers, which are a close parallel to pickups.

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Re: How dissapointing
Guitaris Maximus		Sat May 14 23:49:51 2005
So what exactly is the plan for getting this tape made again? Perhaps it would be good to know the following since you are in talks with 3M: 1. How much would need to be ordered to get them to start producing it? 2. Who are you in talks with so we can possible contact them and say that we are interested in ordering it? 3. What would the cost be for this tape? I really doubt much would come from asking someone at 3M to come and look at a web board and check out the demand….particularly when people are not using their real names.

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Spartacus		Sun May 15 00:49:31 2005
I've been in touch with Jerry Peterson. Jerrol A. Peterson 3M Austin Center 6801 River Place Blvd Mail Stop 145-4S Austin, TX. 78726-9000 512-984-5889 512-984-3247 Fax The plan is to show 3M that enough people in this industry have a need for this tape, and will keep having a need for this tape. Even if they only produce a minimum amount per year, I'm sure we could make it a convincing argument to do so. Cost? Personally, I don't care. I'll pay $50 for a 1/4 inch roll if I have to.

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Greg Simon		Sun May 15 02:48:00 2005
Spartacus, thanks for trying to keep the suppliers honest in regards to continuing to make the products people want to use. I think Dave is right in that if they won't do it, someone overseas will. Its annoying but is the way business is nowadays. The good thing is that it would probably be cheaper if someone did it overseas. So theres hope for the future if 3M can't be convinced to make the stuff. Posting the contact info might help as more people may contact the guy directly to express their interest. I wonder how Duncan and others get around things like things when suppliers stop making products? Greg

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PAPER TAPE		Thu May 19 02:15:21 2005
They are not difficult to get. Just have to look in the right place. And what make you so sure that 3M won't buy the tapes from the Chinese or Korean manufacturer and slap their name on it?. Or would your client knows the difference between the chinese/Korean made paper tape from the 3M MADE IN U.S.A like the old?

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Guitaris Maximus		Thu May 19 02:35:01 2005
The tape that was used on the PAF’s and Patent number pickups is different than anything that I have seen….and I have looked at quite a bit of tape. There are things that are reasonably similar, but nothing that I have seen that is exact. I personally want tape that is exact. Have you ever looked at the tape on an actual vintage Gibson pickup up close? I am looking at one right now and the tape is fibrous, and unique. Do you have a type of tape that you are suggesting is exact? If so...Who makes it? 3M is a very large company, I would not be surprised if they did not have factories in Asia. In fact I would be surprised to find out that they did not have manufacturing over there.

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Stew Mac
Spence ( )		Wed May 25 12:42:40 2005
Is there anything wrong with the paper tape that Stew Mac sells? The 3/8 inch is labelled as not being vintage correct which implies the 1/4 inch stuff is.

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Spartacus		Thu May 26 04:36:37 2005
The 1/4 inch stuff is close. I'd say it's close enough. One issue that I have though is I can't figure out what kind of adhesive it uses. Get the wrong adhesive, and your coil is toast in a few short years. The adhesive is fairly gummy, which I don't like. Lot a lot of tackiness. The rolls are about the size of a silver dollar....just a little smaller than a debit card is wide.

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Seth Lover's brother		Tue May 31 21:09:27 2005
3M No 12 is exactly right except for the minor beige issue. Still you could always dye it. No more clues.

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Paper Tape
Fred Hammon		Thu Jun 2 18:35:02 2005
I'm getting into this discussion a little late. I remember having a similar dialog a year or so ago. I think Stewmac sells the black acetate tape in 1/4"? I've got a roll of black 1/4" masking tape. It sticks very well... I wrap my coils in Teflon thread tape first before potting, then wrap in 1/4" black vinyl electrical tape after potting. I learned the Teflon tape trick here at this forum. If you need to unwrap later for some reason you can do it without damaging the coil.

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Dave Stephens		Sun Jun 5 01:05:23 2005
Teflon is sacrilege to the vintage weenies :-) That number 12 tape has these characteristics: Adhesive Material Thermosetable rubber resin Backing Material Flat paper stock Dielectric Breakdown 2000 Volt Operating Temperature 0 to 55 Degree Celsius Primary Trademark Name 3M Tape Thickness 5.5 Milli-inch (Mil) I guess if you could find black paper tape with thermosettable rubber adhesive you'd have what you need ? Dave

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Dave Stephens		Sun Jun 5 01:17:35 2005
I'm still digging around in the 3m site, if black masking tape has rubber adhesive then it should fine to use on coils since their no. 12 electrical tape which is the wrong color uses a rubber adhesive, I'm not sure what thermoset rubber is but rubber ir rubber right? I don't think there would be a problem really with the StewMac stuff as it is obviously made for wrapping coils and probably is rubber also....Dave

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Dr. Strangelove ( )		Sun Jun 5 02:29:47 2005
Dave Stephens wrote: Adhesive Material Thermosetable rubber resin Thanks for the info. Sounds like chemically tweaked latex and safe for wire enamels. CS Hyde sells mutant plastic film tapes that use mainly silicone and acrylic adhesives. I think of 'RTV' sealant when I see 'silicone adhesive', maybe not the best choice for pickups. -drh --

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Fred Hammon		Sun Jun 5 08:21:46 2005
"I think of 'RTV' sealant when I see 'silicone adhesive'..." Funny.... I think of something else entirely when I see the word "silicone" ...but then, I live in L.A.

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Joey		Sun Jun 5 09:19:25 2005
Just a suggestion.......... I can't get PAF paper tape anywhere so I use some black paper cut into strips and a spray adhesive ( which is essentially a rubber adhesive ) most commonly used for sticking carpets down in cars. It's quite easy to do and will come apart if you're careful.

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